November 21, 2006
albert6811
在天空部落發表於07:21:39 |
傷眼系列 Academic
見Shouj精闢原文
艾柏特 - 11/21/06 4:34:27 am
Dear Shouj,
You eloquently wax about new directions for the development of the social science. I like this article a lot. Regarding”人類的智識,仍可以被切割成自然科學、人文哲學、社會科學三大板塊嗎,” my department has recently recruited a bunch of scholars and graduate students, in an attempt to unite the political science, gene studies and evolutionary psychology. In some sense, this cutting edged approach, such as twin studies regarding their political behavior, merges social science and natural science. It remains unknown if this approach will be another scientific paradigm. But this approach efficiently solves a causality problem (we can be sure that X causes Y, rather than the other way around) and a non-falsifiability problem. The latter has been a big threat to not only European schools such as neo-Marxism, but also American schools such as positivism.
We had several discussions before about the statistic approach modern social scientists use. You are right in this article about the nonlinear relationship in many human behaviors (we still can handle this problem sometimes in statistic though). But except for using crude statistical measurements of political behaviors in many areas, I cannot think of a better way to falsify our theory. Perhaps the new direction in my department is a hope, even though I do not agree with some of their findings regarding race. I was married to racism studies, haha.
Sorry for this long message and I hope everything goes well for you.
shouj - 11/21/06 6:11:23 am
Dear Albert,
我對於「演化論」所衍生思維的重新興起,不抱任何興趣。科際整合不是硬湊配對的心智遊戲。
人類社會結構(structure)是人為的(human actions),並非如生物體般會自我更生演化進展,同時雖人類(actor)相當程度受到這結構體之趨迫,但並非是單方面的,人類的social actions還是驅迫著結構性的改變,英國社會學家紀登斯(Giddens)就強調,人與社會結構是互動的,所要探討的是agent為何,而非結構壓人還是人領導結構的問題。
「演化論」的思維,就是嘗試建立一套人類行為的「血統族譜」,基本上仍是建立在「可測知measurable」、「可證實validity」的scientific method方面,一對雙生兒即使基因排列再怎麼close,其投票行為仍是probability的問題,socialization & unintentional因素,仍是扮演重要角色。
試想,今天出門我本來是要投共和黨的,但是投票所前被石頭絆了一跤給摔的頭破血流,一怒之下就投了民主黨,後頭另一個本要投民主黨的被同樣石頭給搞了一下,但他還是投民主黨了,這種投票行為,政治學者或是以其「不可預知性」或是「非理性」因素,而將其摒除在研究樣本之外,但在數度close call差幾百票的大選結果,這種reality你要如何做「科學性」解釋?這不是「天意」一句話,就可以兩手一攤把學者的學術責任promise給扔到一邊去。
韋伯(Weber)不是也提供了subjective rationality這個可能性研究方向嗎?uncertain and complex reality是人類社會的實際狀態,難道學者就只能坐在一旁抱怨自己的世界太複雜太讓人難以捉摸了嗎?或是,就只能將世界強放進一個抽象的實驗室中,做一些自得其樂的論文研究聊此殘生了嗎?
政治行為除統計模型之外,是否有alternative method to "make science?" 答案是應該有的,這正就是我們做高等智識研究的puzzle,是不?理論theory應該是經驗事實的結晶,並非是規範人類心智行為的測試框框。
艾柏特 - 11/21/06 6:44:37 am
Dear Shouj,
I like some of your arguments there. Like you, I am a political science student who leans toward a sociological type of thinking. I buy into many notions by Weber, Marx and even Giddens. Here are some evolutionary psychologist and social genetist response to your criticisms. They do not necessary represent my opinion. But since I am taking an evolutionary psychology class this semester, I feel it necessary to clarify some of your misunderstanding of this approach.
First, genotype is not “the” only determinist factor. The well known G(gene)X E (environment) formula explains human behaviors. The majority of current social scientists pay their exclusive attention to the E side. To be fair to you, my question of this formula is that how many factors, like the E and G, can be still included.
Second, genotype only “probabilistically” predicts behavior. They are always some outliers there like your Democrat and Republican example. My question to that is how big the portion of these outliers. If those outliers are in influential positions in our society, it would be very important to study them. A good example is the studies of the personality of presidents. It would be utterly naive to predict “all” human behaviors since it is completely impossible. Even for natural scientists, lots of them experience the same difficulties.
Third, I believe that you know R square and the internal validity. Unfortunately, the current research that uses the psychological approach, such as self report attitudes, and the sociological approach, such as culture studies in my Master’s thesis, have a much lower level of R square and internal validity than gene studies have. The well known 2005 twin studies by an Australia academic institute has even a 0.89 of R square. This level of R square is rarely seen in typical social science research. Substantial gene studies have similar predictive power.
Shouj, trust me. In many dimensions, I am with you. But it is helpful for us to think what sociologist perspective CANNOT do and what genetic perspective CANNOT do. No approach is panacea. We should always leave some room for revising our preexisting ideas.
艾柏特 - 11/21/06 4:34:27 am
Dear Shouj,
You eloquently wax about new directions for the development of the social science. I like this article a lot. Regarding”人類的智識,仍可以被切割成自然科學、人文哲學、社會科學三大板塊嗎,” my department has recently recruited a bunch of scholars and graduate students, in an attempt to unite the political science, gene studies and evolutionary psychology. In some sense, this cutting edged approach, such as twin studies regarding their political behavior, merges social science and natural science. It remains unknown if this approach will be another scientific paradigm. But this approach efficiently solves a causality problem (we can be sure that X causes Y, rather than the other way around) and a non-falsifiability problem. The latter has been a big threat to not only European schools such as neo-Marxism, but also American schools such as positivism.
We had several discussions before about the statistic approach modern social scientists use. You are right in this article about the nonlinear relationship in many human behaviors (we still can handle this problem sometimes in statistic though). But except for using crude statistical measurements of political behaviors in many areas, I cannot think of a better way to falsify our theory. Perhaps the new direction in my department is a hope, even though I do not agree with some of their findings regarding race. I was married to racism studies, haha.
Sorry for this long message and I hope everything goes well for you.
shouj - 11/21/06 6:11:23 am
Dear Albert,
我對於「演化論」所衍生思維的重新興起,不抱任何興趣。科際整合不是硬湊配對的心智遊戲。
人類社會結構(structure)是人為的(human actions),並非如生物體般會自我更生演化進展,同時雖人類(actor)相當程度受到這結構體之趨迫,但並非是單方面的,人類的social actions還是驅迫著結構性的改變,英國社會學家紀登斯(Giddens)就強調,人與社會結構是互動的,所要探討的是agent為何,而非結構壓人還是人領導結構的問題。
「演化論」的思維,就是嘗試建立一套人類行為的「血統族譜」,基本上仍是建立在「可測知measurable」、「可證實validity」的scientific method方面,一對雙生兒即使基因排列再怎麼close,其投票行為仍是probability的問題,socialization & unintentional因素,仍是扮演重要角色。
試想,今天出門我本來是要投共和黨的,但是投票所前被石頭絆了一跤給摔的頭破血流,一怒之下就投了民主黨,後頭另一個本要投民主黨的被同樣石頭給搞了一下,但他還是投民主黨了,這種投票行為,政治學者或是以其「不可預知性」或是「非理性」因素,而將其摒除在研究樣本之外,但在數度close call差幾百票的大選結果,這種reality你要如何做「科學性」解釋?這不是「天意」一句話,就可以兩手一攤把學者的學術責任promise給扔到一邊去。
韋伯(Weber)不是也提供了subjective rationality這個可能性研究方向嗎?uncertain and complex reality是人類社會的實際狀態,難道學者就只能坐在一旁抱怨自己的世界太複雜太讓人難以捉摸了嗎?或是,就只能將世界強放進一個抽象的實驗室中,做一些自得其樂的論文研究聊此殘生了嗎?
政治行為除統計模型之外,是否有alternative method to "make science?" 答案是應該有的,這正就是我們做高等智識研究的puzzle,是不?理論theory應該是經驗事實的結晶,並非是規範人類心智行為的測試框框。
艾柏特 - 11/21/06 6:44:37 am
Dear Shouj,
I like some of your arguments there. Like you, I am a political science student who leans toward a sociological type of thinking. I buy into many notions by Weber, Marx and even Giddens. Here are some evolutionary psychologist and social genetist response to your criticisms. They do not necessary represent my opinion. But since I am taking an evolutionary psychology class this semester, I feel it necessary to clarify some of your misunderstanding of this approach.
First, genotype is not “the” only determinist factor. The well known G(gene)X E (environment) formula explains human behaviors. The majority of current social scientists pay their exclusive attention to the E side. To be fair to you, my question of this formula is that how many factors, like the E and G, can be still included.
Second, genotype only “probabilistically” predicts behavior. They are always some outliers there like your Democrat and Republican example. My question to that is how big the portion of these outliers. If those outliers are in influential positions in our society, it would be very important to study them. A good example is the studies of the personality of presidents. It would be utterly naive to predict “all” human behaviors since it is completely impossible. Even for natural scientists, lots of them experience the same difficulties.
Third, I believe that you know R square and the internal validity. Unfortunately, the current research that uses the psychological approach, such as self report attitudes, and the sociological approach, such as culture studies in my Master’s thesis, have a much lower level of R square and internal validity than gene studies have. The well known 2005 twin studies by an Australia academic institute has even a 0.89 of R square. This level of R square is rarely seen in typical social science research. Substantial gene studies have similar predictive power.
Shouj, trust me. In many dimensions, I am with you. But it is helpful for us to think what sociologist perspective CANNOT do and what genetic perspective CANNOT do. No approach is panacea. We should always leave some room for revising our preexisting ideas.












